Ryan Grant Little: 0:44

Hi and thanks for tuning in to the very first episode of Another Climate Tech Podcast. My name is Ryan Grant Little and I've worked as an impact and climate tech founder, investor and advisor for the last 20 years. That's why, every day, I have the good fortune to talk to the people doing the heavy lifting in the fight for climate change. The entrepreneurs, investors, activists, artists, academics and legislators doing everything they can to save us from ourselves. I made this podcast to share their stories with you. All you need to bring to it is curiosity. If you're looking for polished and highly produced content, then you're definitely in the wrong place, But if you want to hear real conversations with the unsung heroes tackling humanity's biggest existential threat, then I'd really suggest you stick around.

Ryan Grant Little: 1:33

In this first conversation, I spoke with Josef Mouris, who's startup, ELECTRON, aims to make air travel both zero carbon and on demand through their electric five-seater airplane, the ELECTRON 5. I hope to hitch a ride in one of these someday and love their vision for the future of air travel. I reached Josef at home in Southampton, England. Josef, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here.

Josef Mouris: 1:58

Ryan, fantastic to see you again. Thanks for having me.

Ryan Grant Little: 2:02

A lot of the entrepreneurs that I talked to have some kind of business background. Some of them have especially in like alternate proteins or climate tech science backgrounds. you have a really interesting background and that actually fits quite well with what you do. You were a commercial pilot for 15 years And now you set out to, i mean, really radically transform aviation. Can you take us back to kind of you know, was it on a long haul flight? You were sitting there and thinking this has got to change. or take us back a while And kind of, what was the aha moment where you had the idea for ELECTRON?

Josef Mouris: 2:36

Wow, Ryan, yeah, I mean, it's a long story, it's in my blood, effectively. So in a way, there's so many things coming together. You know, i started studying industrial product design in the Netherlands before I decided to become an airline pilot. flying and runs in a family through my mother.

Josef Mouris: 2:55

I went for my first gliding flight when I was only I don't know six years old or something, and then I flew my first solo flight when I was 15. So, yeah, i wasn't even allowed to drive a car, but there I was flying an airplane, which is crazy. But then, yeah, i didn't really know where I was going to end up with industrial product design. It's like a combination of design and technical side of things engineering And I didn't feel comfortable designing or interested to design the next Braun toothbrush, electric toothbrush or a windshield wiper for an Audi. And aerospace also seemed very samey same and not much going on there, whereas, having been an airline pilot for 15 years, things are definitely changing at the moment in aerospace. So I've actually come full circle and gone back to my roots of design, but now informed of what actually happens on a day to day basis at the regional airline.

Ryan Grant Little: 3:58

So the downside of podcasts is that people can't see what I'm looking at right now, which is a rendering of your beautiful electric aircraft, and I'll put a link to that on the show notes. So it's a five seater, it has, it's all glass, it's lots and lots of glass, it's got propellers in the back of the wings. It's really beautiful, and it's got a range of 750 kilometers, which is about 500 miles, payload of 500 kilograms, which is about 1000 pounds, and it's quiet, so, as most electric things are, so you can fly it at night and not worry about these kind of restrictions. So tell me about this Is this a prototype? Is this a rendering? Is it sitting somewhere? If not, when will it be? Tell me all about this beautiful thing, which is definitely miles ahead of a Braun toothbrush or a windshield wiper.

Josef Mouris: 4:50

Yeah, yeah, so for sure. So this is renderings. They're conceptual, although there are people in our team that have worked on several real aircraft over the years, but we are very much at the early days of this And, to be fair, even like 750 kilometers or 500 miles and 500 kilograms doesn't really mean that much to people until you kind of put it into context of what that means, and that basically means that you could fly on your own or with your wife, or with a business colleague and the kids, or a group of four people from places like Amsterdam to London or to Paris, right. So these are the short distance strips that we do quite frequently right now, but you're no-transcript used to doing it with 180 other people in the aircraft. So it starts small, it's like a private jet And effectively what we're doing is we are making private jet flying affordable at business class ticket prices and also making it zero emissions.

Ryan Grant Little: 5:56

We know that every time we get on an easy jet flight going from London to Amsterdam or, in the US, the Southwest flight to Vegas or something like that, that we're being very bad climate citizens. What does it mean? What does a future of electric or emission-free aviation look like? Can you set the scene a little bit about what the aviation industry means right now in terms of climate change or emissions?

Josef Mouris: 6:24

Sure. So as a whole of all emissions, aviation is only doing about 2% or 3% of all the emissions that we produce. But where other sectors are looking at curbing their emissions, aviation is on this massive long-historic growth for around 4.5% a year. Despite all the improvements in the efficiency in the aircraft, the market's just growing so fast that the emissions are going up, and so we could actually see that aerospace aviation could be responsible for up to around 20% of all the emissions by 2050.

Josef Mouris: 7:01

Because it's a very hard thing to decarbonize And that means that we need to. There's no really one silver bullet and we need to look at all the different solutions that are out there and pragmatically employ them. And that means, for short haul, it's more than likely going to be battery, electric It's cheaper, it's actually zero emissions And the long haul is going to be more difficult. That's going to be SAF sustainable aviation fuels, maybe hydrogen, but it's much more expensive to do that, so it's not really economically interesting to do. But let's start with the low-hanging fruit And you talk about a family flying from place to place.

Ryan Grant Little: 7:44

You're both an aviation company and you're planning to be like an air taxi company as well, which feels to me like two different business models Uber doesn't make cars and Toyota doesn't run a taxi service. How do you imagine that working, and why the choice for vertical integration?

Josef Mouris: 8:07

Yeah, it's an interesting one. So actually initially we really wanted to buy the electric aircraft. Nobody really wants to do manufacturing, unless you can avoid it. Great, but it's hard, it's capital intensive, it's also hard to raise money for. But having looked around, we just couldn't really find any suitable aircraft. There is a lot of projects out there, particularly in the vertical take-off and landing space, but when it comes to pure battery electric aircraft, there's really not that many projects out there And they're not necessarily also that far along.

Josef Mouris: 8:45

So if you really want to do this service, then you're going to have to become an aircraft manufacturer almost, and then, on the one hand, it seems like a massive downside to have to do that.

Josef Mouris: 9:00

On the other side, it actually means that when we do launch the service and are ready to scale because it's probably going to become comfortable sorry, popular and it is very comfortable.

Josef Mouris: 9:11

But Uber is already allowing people to book flights, for instance, on their app, so that you can streamline this journey And you can actually then in the future, offer a door-to-door zero-emissions travel electric car to the airport, get on an electric plane. On the other hand, again, you get into an electric car to your final destination, writing that app or white labeling. That isn't the difficult part. Everybody can do that. It's making the aircraft, and so, when we're finally ready to scale and it's going to become popular, we need to start producing these aircraft in higher numbers, higher numbers than we've ever seen before. And that's where, then actually because we're not just one customer out of 10 customers trying to buy aircraft from one manufacturer we can actually become our own biggest asset, in a way that we can throw all of our production capacity into our own operations, and that would be the power of that vertical integration that you mentioned.

Ryan Grant Little: 10:05

And does that mean also that once you have these on the market, i could log into my Uber app and book a flight, potentially on an ELECTRON airplane?

Josef Mouris: 10:16

That's right. Yeah, so in the future you'll probably. Whatever app you use, google gives you various options that you can use to travel with. You can go by train, by public transport, by car flights. I'm not sure if they're on there, i think they are as well, but that doesn't really tell you what the carbon impact necessarily is of that trip.

Josef Mouris: 10:37

All that stuff is going to come, and so whether or not ELECTRON, or whatever it will be called by then, will appear on your Google Maps, or whether or not it will run through Uber or another booking app Effectively, you will be able to book your journey from door to door, and part of that journey will be operated by ELECTRON. Whether or not we will just do the aircraft operating bit, or whether or not there will be a bit more to it, it's too early to tell.

Ryan Grant Little: 11:10

And I can imagine that for business travelers, a lot of companies, whether through a voluntary approach or a mandated approach, are starting to reduce their carbon footprint and have net zero goals and that type of thing This could transform really contribute to their footprint as well. So maybe even more so more attractive to the business traveler initially than to the private traveler.

Josef Mouris: 11:32

Yeah, so we realized quite early on that the early adopters of this will actually be business travelers, because right now a lot of them are told to travel by car or by train, are wasting a lot of time and it's actually quite valuable time for them, so they can afford to pay a little bit more to use the service to gain back that time. And actually when we looked at the data of various companies and where they're traveling and how much they're spending on their travel, it turns out that, yes, if sure, if it's one of them traveling, it's going to be more expensive to get on a private electric plane. If it's two of them, it's actually only about 15 to 20% more expensive than what they used to pay, and if it's three or four, it's actually cheaper than what they used to pay. But now they can travel again. As I said, they can actually avoid an extra night in a hotel. They can be back the same day. So in a way, it's potentially already cheaper for them to do if it's just two of them traveling on our servers.

Ryan Grant Little: 12:27

Okay, so that's really interesting. I mean, you obviously know the numbers or the projected numbers pretty well, so it is from a cost competitive perspective. as long as you've got a few more bodies in that plane, then it's going to be competitive to taking other forms of transport or putting three people on.

Josef Mouris: 12:44

Yeah. So our goal is basically to make private flying as affordable as business class tickets straight away, and eventually we want to get it all the way down to when we scale out to get it down to economy class tickets, and against the backdrop of the airline industry. I mean, right now most airlines pay hardly any tax on the fuel that they stick into the aircraft. They hardly have to pay for the emissions. That's changing both on the fuel tax but also in the emissions as of the end of this year, unless it gets delayed again. Any airline that's flying into and out of Europe even if they're actually also flying outside of Europe they'll have to pay about 100 euro price per ton of CO2 that they emit. That did not used to be the case. Right now Most airlines are paying far, far less than that.

Ryan Grant Little: 13:36

You mentioned that it's not the easiest thing to fund. There's a lot of hardware involved here. There's a lot of R&D. It's harder than making the app that might control this type of thing. from a funding standpoint, who is interested in funding this type of thing? Is it VC's? Is it big?

Josef Mouris: 13:55

It's not only that, we're also in this financial situation at the moment in Europe where everybody's expecting a recession. You see that from all the investments being made over the last year, 80-90% are follow-on investments, which makes it really hard for a startup like us to gain momentum. Our early investors are actually individuals, angels with a sizable bank account. because we do have relatively large ticket sizes, because we need so much money to get an aircraft to certification. We also also don't want to end up with hundreds of thousands of people on our cap table, because that would also make us an investor at a later stage. But saying that, we also have interest from some strategic partners, including a customer cargo logistics company that's going to be wanting to or is securing capacity on our aircraft on the network as it builds out. Then we also have other strategic investors expressing an interest at this point that are interested for other reasons. I can't really go into that too deeply right now.

Ryan Grant Little: 15:08

I'd be curious to know what strategic could mean lots of things in this sense, but I recognize that that's probably hits a little too close to home at the moment. I'll leave that aside. But the market is growing quite a bit. Mckinsey says that regional air mobility right now is about $5 billion, but 2035 could be as much as $100 billion. That is going to attract investors. That's the market that you're looking to dig into. What kind of role do you see yourself? take that 12 years away. What kind of role would you like to see Electron playing at that time?

Josef Mouris: 15:43

Yeah, sure, i mean. What's interesting from that report is that it also highlights where these travelers are coming from. What modes of travel is it displacing, right, and it's very interesting that A it's a massive growth, right from $5 billion to over $100 billion in 12 years time. But what's interesting is that a quarter of those trips is replacement of around a quarter is a replacement of existing air travel. About 50% of that is actually replacing car journeys and rail journeys. And then another quarter is totally new journeys, journeys that people wouldn't ordinarily have done before, but because the service is available, they would, and so this actually allows the industry, the travel industry, to grow without growing its emissions, because it's a zero emissions mode of transport, right, but not only that the air replacing of rail and road trips is also very interesting because we utilize the vehicles very much more than your average car that sits around for 95% of the time It only drives, say, 250,000 kilometers in its 15 year life, compared to an aircraft that will do more than 10 million kilometers over that same period with also usually more passengers on board.

Josef Mouris: 16:59

So actually you're making a lot more use of your hardware. You hardly need any infrastructure because you don't need roads or rail, and there's a lot of carbon that comes into play when you actually look at those scope-through emissions of building that infrastructure. So that's really good and the kind of market size that's developing there, i think it's still very much unknown, but because we are setting ourselves up for actually being able to scale and also do really that on-demand type model connecting all these smaller airports that are now vastly underused, we could be in a similar situation as Tesla is right now, where we basically occupy 20% of that market worldwide Scope 3 emissions, being the supply chain emissions.

Ryan Grant Little: 17:47

So there are thousands of regional airports. I was interested to see that the McKinsey studies really about regional air mobility And there are thousands of regional airports around the world. You're based in the Netherlands, you've chosen Groningen Groningen, if I've pronounced it correctly, as the first sub Dutch is always so hard And looking at Twente, also in 2027. So can you talk a little bit about the dynamics of you know why are you targeting regional airports? What advantages, what challenges?

Josef Mouris: 18:17

Yeah, so first of all, i mean, i live in Southampton at the moment in the UK, whereas my family actually lives in the Netherlands, and so the trips that I used to do for work as an airline pilot used to be those flights of 45 minutes to maybe an hour and a half connecting places like London and Southampton to Amsterdam, paris and so forth. And you know there's been this massive hype recently about EV tools and what's called urban air mobility, but they will actually, in the end, only really get you from London Airport to the center of London or Amsterdam Schiphol Airport to the center of Amsterdam if there's somewhere to land there. They do not have the range to fly between London and Amsterdam. Right now I have the choice of flying once a day from Southampton Airport to Amsterdam, from Southampton to Amsterdam, or, if I want to fly at a different time, i have to first drive to Gatwick or Heathrow, which is an hour and a half down the road, and I still end up in Amsterdam. That's actually not where I need to go in the Netherlands at all. There's a perfectly good airport 15 minutes down the road from where my parents live, where I actually want to go, and so when you then actually look at the operating costs of what some of those EV tool players, like Lilium for instance, are predicting in terms of their operating costs. Well, a large chunk of that is actually to build out that hardware sorry, that infrastructure, all those Verte ports, as they're called. They're going to cost a lot of money to actually roll out.

Josef Mouris: 19:43

Again, we have so many airports worldwide that we hardly use. So there's a report out in the US from NASA called Regional Amobility, which highlights that 70% of passengers travel through only 0.6% of the airport. There's another similar statistic in Europe where it's actually around 88%, which is just mental. So we have like 2,700 airports in Europe but we're only using around 500 of them or so. The rest of them are actually costing the government, typically the council's money to keep them open And you have a lot of people saying, well, let's close them, let's build some houses there. There's also noise, pollution, all that sort of stuff. So now actually we're looking into a future where those airports actually could connect those regions much better into Europe and actually could start contributing money to the local environment there. And on the noise front, these battery electric aircraft are so, so quiet. They really won't actually cause noise to the point that the people that live around those airports would be hindered by that noise.

Ryan Grant Little: 20:52

I can see how, leaving aside even the electric aspect, just the asset utilization of these regional airports, i mean, the biggest disruption that we've seen kind of in our lifetimes, probably in the airline industry, is the flagship carriers being kind of undercut on price and even on routes in a lot of cases by the low-cost airlines, the Southwest and the EasyJets, and they largely did this by competing on asset utilization, so keeping the planes up in the air, turning them around really quickly, direct routes only, basically. And now what you're talking about right now is an opportunity where the regional airports are massively underused and treating these as underuse assets that we need to get, not in the air in this case, but being landed at a much higher rate.

Josef Mouris: 21:41

Yeah, so basically those airports are going to become energy hubs and also where basically this multimodal transport comes into play. You can arrive there by train, you can arrive there by an electric car, an electric Uber. If the airport's much closer to where you actually are coming from or going to, it's probably cheaper to get an Uber and even better if it's an electric one than paying for the car parking or parking your own private car that then sits around. There's nothing at the airport. So this is really rethinking how that mobility is going to work.

Josef Mouris: 22:16

You can actually produce a lot of the electricity at those airports, and that's one of the reasons why we chose to start with Groningen and Twente, and Groningen already has a 22 megawatt solar panel installation at the airport. There's room to build more, but that is so much electricity being produced there. We could have 25 airplanes based there and fly something like a million and a half passengers a year and still only be consuming a quarter of the energy that's being produced there, and that's now actually already one of the smaller ones. There's some other airports in Europe and in the states that have solar panel installations that are five, six times the size of that. So, yeah, really think about them as energy hubs in the future, and they are effectively also going to become worth a bit more money, shall we say.

Ryan Grant Little: 23:04

You mentioned Lilium, which is a vertical takeoff and landing electric aircraft coming from Munich. Who else is working on this problem And do you have any direct competitors at the moment?

Josef Mouris: 23:17

When you actually look at the market and we have some third party reports there's, say, 400 projects out there. 300 of them are in that vertical takeoff and landing space, which is a totally different market segment because of the range. Then the other hundreds. basically you can subdivide those into some hydrogen projects, which are typically also bigger aircraft. and then there's hybrid, which hybrid, although it offers in theory also a slightly bigger range, it doesn't really give you that operating cost reduction, because now you have two drive systems to maintain instead of one that has much less maintenance requirements, which is the battery electric one, And then the other one is, basically or what you left with basically is a small number of projects and they all are building completely different size aircraft.

Josef Mouris: 24:06

So there's quite a few bigger ones, like heart aerospace building a 30-seater and me building a 44-seater, which is more like replacing the existing bigger aircraft that airlines use for these high density routes. And then, on the other hand, you have like training aircraft like the Pippa's Trail is the first aircraft that's YASA certified and that allows you to do some parts of the pilot training program, maybe 30%. It doesn't quite have the duration that you would need and there's more of those aircraft coming to market. But where we come in is actually with the only twin engine, battery, electric aircraft of this size, as far as we can see, that that's in development And that allows us actually also to target that market of the second stage of pilot training, the bit that you do before you join an airline, where you need to do your multi-engine rating and your instrument rating. So that's one of the four markets that we're selling the aircraft into. Initially we're predominantly selling the aircraft to the risk of business, to existing markets, And then later we also want to operate those aircraft ourselves.

Ryan Grant Little: 26:09

Do you imagine selling these aircraft also to private individuals, high net worth individuals?

Josef Mouris: 26:14

Yeah, we have a couple of investors that also want an aircraft themselves, and recently we were at eBay's European Business Aviation Conference in Geneva where we did attract actually quite a lot of attention. It seems to be a really hot topic there And of course, the range of the aircraft, the size of it, cost of it, is just a really interesting business proposal for a lot of people that are looking at this for their own private transport.

Ryan Grant Little: 26:44

One of the interesting partnerships that you've developed is with Travis Ludlow, who is 18 now, but was the youngest person to fly around the world a couple of years ago, in 2021. And he's going to fly your prototype, or your first aircraft, around the world next year. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Josef Mouris: 27:03

Yeah, so Travis. It's really important also to get the youth engaged with this And this is effectively for their future. I turned 40 less than a week ago, so I'm starting to feel a bit older when I'm thinking about Travis when he was doing this trip around the world At age 19,. It's just an incredible achievement, and Travis is now studying, also in the US, on electric aircraft. In fact, he's really enthusiastic about the subject And it's really important that we get those younger people involved. He'll be joining us at the Paris Air Show in a couple of days time, where we will be part of the Dutch Pavilion, and he should be coming with us also to our own private event which we have later this month at our Hangaren Toge.

Josef Mouris: 27:55

And so, yeah, to spread this message of like, actually, with battery electric aircraft, you can do commercially viable things And also you can connect. You can get very simply anywhere in the world. If you can fly around the world, you can really get pretty much anywhere in the world with these battery electric aircraft. And it's also safe, because a lot of people unless you already are part of the 1% club and fly in your private aircraft are more used to these bigger aircraft with 180 other people And it might take a little bit of persuasion to get them into a smaller aircraft. So if you can fly around the world in it, it's probably safe enough to fly from Southampton to Birmingham or from London to Paris or Paris to Geneva in one. Yeah.

Ryan Grant Little: 28:41

As an entrepreneur, you probably look at some other people who are beating the odds out there. Do you have a personal hero in the entrepreneurship space, or actually in any anywhere?

Josef Mouris: 28:50

Yeah, so this is a question that has a bit of a divisive answer to it, because a lot of people like this person, but also a lot of people don't like this person, and it's got to do also with the way that the media looks at it, which, whichever way you look at it, you can't really deny that he's had a massive impact, and that's that is Elon Musk.

Ryan Grant Little: 29:14

Long, long pregnant pause. Okay, I mean, you're an aviation, yeah.

Josef Mouris: 29:19

Yeah, so you know, looking at it, looking at Tesla and we do also learn a lot from Tesla. Being fair, elon wasn't there at the very start of Tesla. It started before Elon came on board. But there's a lot of lessons to be learned from Tesla And if you look at where Tesla is now, you know they're doing, doing really, really well. And then you know SpaceX is also another incredible, incredible company. So to be basically at the helm of two such innovative, fast-scaling companies, it's impressive.

Ryan Grant Little: 29:55

There's a famous quote from Richard Branson. Someone once asked him how do you become a millionaire? And he said start as a billionaire and buy an airline.

Josef Mouris: 30:04

Yeah, that's, that's, it's very true. I mean actually aviation these days it's quite stable. You know you have you need a high utilization rate And then, when everything's going well, you have like 80, 90% occupancy, you make a two or 3% profit margin. compared to aerospace, that's running at around 35% profit margin.

Ryan Grant Little: 30:24

I was just looking for a way to make a joke about Twitter.

Josef Mouris: 30:29

Well, yeah, so definitely yeah, that's that's, that's the way forward to, to to make yourself poor in a in a faster space of time, aerospace combined with electric mobility, that's you know.

Ryan Grant Little: 30:42

you can probably take a few lessons from that. For ELECTRON.

Josef Mouris: 30:47

Yeah, you need you need a clear mission, mission statement and you need people to really align with that mission and make it clear to people out there and communicate clearly what that mission is, that vision is. And then it's really amazing actually the amount of support that you can get. And I found this out just at the height of COVID, just before I actually started electron. My wife works in the in the R and the NHS and the hospital in the UK and they were desperately short of PPE face shields. I started 3d printing those face shields for her. I got it approved within a week, or she got it approved within a week in the hospital because they were basically so short. They had two of these face masks and they were dunking it in a bucket of chlorine solution and sticking it straight back onto the next person's head with like eight people on the ward. So it was mental and I actually ended up with 25 guys 3d printing these face shields and I made a design which was stackable, so instead of printing one every four hours, you could print 30 in seven or eight hours And we actually we think that the this design was made more than 100,000 times will worldwide. It really was exponential. We had a company making an injection mold and the really critical time was those first few weeks when they had basically nothing and you know, the normal supply chain takes like six months to to catch up with that normally, and so we tried to basically overnight do this and scale it.

Josef Mouris: 32:29

And when there's this common goal of doing something, i think really since COVID, people are aware much more of what the situation was with climate change is gaining much more momentum And we really are out of time. We really need to to get going. And so for me to actually be able to take aviation which is viewed quite negatively normally by a lot of people because it produces a lot of emissions, to actually becoming a bit of a hero because you could actually decarbonize also road transport much quicker than you can. Building cars, for instance. You know we have 1.5 billion cars in the world And if you were to, you know, replace those at 20 million a year, It's going to take quite a few years before we replace all of them right. And so there are actually only around 30,000 commercial aircraft in the world, and then there's another 20 or 30,000 private aircraft out there. It's really not that many, and so we can actually not only make those zero emissions but also just accelerate this, this whole transition to sustainability, then yeah, that's, that's amazing.

Ryan Grant Little: 33:39

I never thought of it in those numbers and thinking of the replacement rate. that makes a lot of sense And also it's the flip side of the asset utilization right. so if a car is only being driven a couple of hours a day and a plane's in the air all the time, yeah, and the side of that is that the impact you can make by by electrifying it as much higher as well.

Josef Mouris: 33:56

And it's in a way, actually it's the aviation is one of the best forms of shared mobility. Right, because there's not that many people that own their own aircraft, whereas most people own their own car. So we really do utilize that asset much more in aviation. And yeah, if you look at the impact of one of our size aircraft, which is only a small aircraft compared to electric cars or cars in general, basically one of our accurate places more than 40 cars So. And then another level on top of that is like the battery materials. So we are short on battery materials.

Josef Mouris: 34:35

Initially, the limiting factor for Tesla was batteries. Now shifted to battery materials. But if you look those battery materials up into a car for 15 years, probably not the best use of those of those battery materials were actually, yes, we have to replace the batteries every two years or so in an aircraft, but actually we can give those batteries a second life as buffers, battery packs on the ground, and then we can recycle the materials, like more than 90% of the materials we can recycle in there, and give them another, another cycle, and so for the same set of ton of battery materials that you dig up up out of the ground, actually an electric aircraft You can do up to 100 times more passenger kilometers than you can do with an electric car, and that's in that time, all climate opportunity costs at play.

Ryan Grant Little: 35:21

In case people want to get in touch with you, i've put your LinkedIn in the show notes. Josef, thank you so much for being here.

Josef Mouris: 35:29

Again. Ryan, thanks very much for having me.

Ryan Grant Little: 35:38

Thanks for listening to another climate tech podcast. Please take five seconds to send this episode link to a colleague or friend who you think might be interested. Reach out to me anytime at hello at climate tech podcom. As you can probably tell, this episode was produced, edited, directed, stage managed, boom operated and everything else by me. Subscribe to hear many more conversations still to come with the world's real climate tech heroes.