Ryan Grant Little: 0:42

Welcome to Another Climate Tech Podcast conversations with the people trying to save us from ourselves. Today, I spoke with the serial tech entrepreneur and angel investor, Marcus Linder, about his company Inoqo. I reached him here in Vienna to talk about the decarbonization of the grocery chain, what food companies are doing to become more sustainable and his own sustainable campaign one change a week. But we started the interview by jumping right in about Enoko. I'm Ryan Grant. Little Thanks for joining, Marcus. Welcome to the podcast.

Markus Linder: 1:12

Hello, excited to be here.

Ryan Grant Little: 1:14

So talk about Inoqo. What problem does it exist to solve?

Markus Linder: 1:18

Yeah, so one of the biggest challenges that we have at the moment is obviously the climate crisis, biodiversity crisis and, you know, a global health crisis, and what all of these three key challenges have in common is that they are heavily influenced by the food that we consume each and every day. So the food that we buy at supermarkets every day is responsible for a third of the global greenhouse gas emissions, it's responsible for 70% of biodiversity loss on land and obviously it has a huge impact on our own health. And this is the big challenge that we decided to help tackling within Inoqo. Inoqo is a software service platform that enables grocery retailers and food and beverage brands to assess the impact of their thousands of food and beverage products at scale on impact dimensions such as climate or social impact or animal welfare, nutrition, so that grocery retailers and food and beverage brands can ultimately communicate the impact of those products to you and I, to us, the consumers, to help us make more sustainable choices. But they can also use that data to engage with us, because one thing that we learned at Inoqo is that it's not enough to simply put a label onto food and beverage products and, you know, expect consumers to change their behavior from one day to the other. You also really need to leverage content matching gamification to really help us as consumers to embark on to that journey towards a more sustainable and also healthier nutrition, and ultimately, we also will support our customers in optimizing their products and reducing the impact of their products.

Markus Linder: 3:04

So it's really not only about, I mean, basically, you know, as a grocery retailer, you have four options to really achieve your climate goals and your science-based target initiative goals. Obviously, you have to reduce food waste, which plays an enormous role in this whole story. You have to reduce the impact of your private label brands. You have to incentivize your third party brands to, step by step, reduce the impact of their products. And you obviously have to help consumers change their behavior. And you know, because if we continue to eat the massive amount of meat each and every day as we do today, we won't have a chance to really, you know, achieve our climate goals ultimately. So it's really a combination of those four big important levers and, except for food waste, we from Inoqo really allow the food and beverage industry to go full in and tackle that problem by really, you know, reducing the impact of products and by helping consumers to change their behavior and to really embark on this journey of a more sustainable and healthy nutrition.

Ryan Grant Little: 4:10

Okay, so it's an app, basically, that I would bring into the grocery store. Is that how it works? So, for me, I'm a horrible grocery shopper and I go in and have all these plants to make this beautiful dinner tonight and for the shop for the next couple of days, and I come out with a bag of Doritos and AA batteries and end up ordering Indian food. So anything that makes it even more complicated for me is going to be problematic. Maybe I'm not the typical consumer, but are you basically putting maybe talk a bit about how the product works? Am I going in with my smartphone and scanning labels? How does it work?

Markus Linder: 4:43

So, as in Inoqo, we started the business with a consumer app. So we launched a consumer app in our test market, austria, which actually enables you, as a consumer, to scan the grocery receipt once you've paid and then we show you how climate friendly your purchase is. You know, you see, like from dark green to dark red, whether you did a pretty amazing job already, which you obviously, most of the time probably will do. I think, if I remember correctly, your vegan right. That's obviously helps a lot with climate friendly purchasing.

Ryan Grant Little: 5:14

Doritos are vegan, so our AA batteries for that matter. Oh yeah, they might have some more adverse impact than it is.

Markus Linder: 5:22

They're not GMO. We only do food, so the batteries wouldn't show up on your climate bill. No, but this is how we basically started so showing consumers through our Enoko consumer app how sustainable their purchase was and making recommendations that are more sustainable. But a year ago we basically figured out that the large grocery retailers don't plan to sue us, because that was our initial assumption when we started the app, because we actually thought, okay, we're going to make it transparent. You know how shitty all those products are, that you can find that typically grocery store today. But actually the opposite happened. So the grocery retailers reached out and said, hey, we really love what you guys are doing. We know we need to embark on this journey to help our customers become more sustainable and, you know, to improve our products. Can we somehow integrate the things that you're doing? And that's why a year ago, we completely pivoted towards B2B. We still run our consumer app, but it's like you know, yeah, we don't really put effort into it.

Markus Linder: 6:23

And with our B2B product, we basically receive the public data that our customers have about their food and beverage products so the ingredients, the labels, the nutritional values based on that data. In the first step, we can assess the impact of these products. So, basically, we have an algorithm that allows us to understand what is the composition of the product how much wheat is on the ready made pizza, how much tomato, how much tuna. Then we apply conservative values onto those ingredients, as well as onto all the processes that are typically involved in producing, let's say, this pizza. And this way we can communicate, we can provide the retail customer a conservative estimate of the product carbon footprint, for example, of that product. But also, by leveraging labels and so on and country of origin related information, we can provide feedback in terms of what's the social risk behind the product, what's the animal welfare implications of the product and so on, and what the retailer can do now with that data.

Markus Linder: 7:28

And this is now how you basically would find that information ultimately, as a consumer. They can obviously integrate it into their own apps, so allowing you, when you shop online, to see is this rather a climate friendly or not a climate friendly product? Or they can suddenly start to recommend more sustainable alternatives. So when you are about to buy the product that you purchased you know for ages, you would suddenly find below hey, you know, there is the following more sustainable alternative and in Oko, it ultimately also explain why this product is a better choice, why it's better for you from a health perspective, why it's potentially better for animal, why it's potentially better for the climate, why it's better for other people. To not only just show you you know, from dark green A to dark red E, is this a sustainable or more or less sustainable product, but to also really give you the you know the effects behind it. Because what we have seen is that if you want people to change their behavior, you really need to allow them to actually understand what are the implications of their choices. And this is basically the data and the information that we also provide to retail customers so that they can, over time, educate you as a consumer.

Markus Linder: 8:46

And you know that journey for you as a consumer would go on, because obviously, what our customers do is they start printing our label onto their products. So, front of pack labels where you immediately see okay, this is a rather, you know, environmental friendly, animal welfare friendly choice, or rather not. You would find a QR code, typically on our label, which also allows you to get access on these so-called impact insights where you can learn how much space that the chicken have was for sure, not that we've saw originating from the Amazon rainforest. Did it ever see the daylight? And so on, and the journey goes on.

Markus Linder: 9:23

So once you buy the products, you know, once you check out at the supermarket and if you did let's say rather, for example, climate friendly purchase or animal welfare friendly purchase the retailer can now praise you for that. So basically send you a push notification on to your mobile if you have used the loyalty card or loyalty app on cash out and tell you, hey, well done, this was very climate friendly purchase. They can reward you. They can give you, you know, extra points or cashback vouchers or similar benefits to really reward you for shopping the more climate friendly, more animal welfare friendly, more sustainable way. So this is how, in a nutshell, how you as a consumer would basically engage with our technology through the apps and through the interfaces of our grocery retail customers.

Ryan Grant Little: 10:14

Okay, so it's basically gamification of all of these factors, from animal welfare through to sustainability, and so you're working with the retailers, not the food manufacturers specifically. So I mean, I would imagine that this almost becomes like, you know, 10 years from now. Maybe this is like the ingredients list that's on the package itself and kind of it's required to be on there. How much salt does it have in it? How much, you know, saturated fats? That type of thing where maybe at the beginning the food producers were pushing back a little bit and not super keen on it, but now it's just kind of the table stakes and the way the industry works. Is that kind of the direction you think we're going in?

Markus Linder: 10:50

Yeah, absolutely. That's the direction. We, on purpose, start with the grocery retailers, because if you look at the grocery stores, you will find usually thousands of private level brand products. So the grocery retailers really have, you know, quite a large market share in terms of the products that are sold within their own stores, which gives them, you know, a huge opportunity to start with something like this. But they also have the right commercial incentives to do so, because, ultimately, the brands are always a little bit in the situation unless they are already super sustainable today that they are telling us hey, yeah, I don't really want to be the first one to start doing this. I know we have to do it, but I don't really want to, you know, be the first one If my competitor doesn't do it.

Markus Linder: 11:38

Consumers might, you know, buy products that don't have a label because they think they're better and, on the other hand, the retailers have a massive incentive to do so because by really labeling their own private level brand products, they can, first of all, really appeal to that sustainability conscious target audience.

Markus Linder: 11:56

So they can really become the number one go to destinations for shoppers who care and who want to learn how to shop in a more sustainable way.

Markus Linder: 12:05

But they can also ultimately shift the revenue mix away from typically not so sustainable products, which typically happen to be third-party brand products, towards more sustainable products, so vegan products, vegetarian products, and if you walk through a store, you will quickly realize that the supermarkets usually have a very high market share within the vegan space, within the organic space, which means in the end, they are shifting revenue away from third-party brands towards their own sustainable, private level brands, where they typically have a much higher margin. So there is multiple benefits that relieve commercial benefits that the retailers have here by really providing more information to their consumers, giving them access, allowing them to understand what are the sustainability benefits of, you know, you know, switching from one product to another, which frequently happens to be one of their private label brands, not on purpose, not because our methodology would be skewed towards them, but just because they have a very large share amongst those, typically a very large share amongst those vegan products, organic products and so on.

Ryan Grant Little: 14:15

That's really interesting. So if you look back on the history of private label brands, say that they've been around for 40 years plus or minus in grocery stores and their whole thing is that their lower costs because they don't have advertising, they don't have to push that and they're kind of like their like products. But now all of a sudden they have an opportunity to stand out. So it's almost like the original Heizl-Endetzka, just being the cheaper one and, you know, the like product of the bigger brands now all of a sudden has a competitive advantage from the perspective of the consumer. So it's kind of turning the model on its head a little bit.

Markus Linder: 14:50

Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting times for grocery retailers at the moment and a huge opportunity. So one of our partners, mckinsey, estimates that retailers can actually increase their profit by up to 50% by really, you know, being a front runner in this green transition by reducing risks, by reducing costs, but also by seizing opportunities. And those retailers who are, yeah, really front runners in that space will massively benefit from that green transition that we're seeing happening at the moment.

Ryan Grant Little: 15:22

And so we're talking about companies doing this on a voluntary basis. I can imagine that there's probably some stuff before, kind of the EU parliament or you know in the US that's starting to think about this kind of from a policy or regulatory perspective, about you know, mandating that some of this footprint stuff is there. Maybe it's farther out, but I can imagine that it's starting to happen. What are you seeing there and at what point do you think this will be required?

Markus Linder: 15:48

Very interesting things are happening there. For example, the European Union is currently working on the green claims directive. You know it's going to govern to a very large extent how sustainability claims have to be backed up by data, by science-based evidence, and basically this is really like a directive that will, to a very large extent, stop greenwashing, because today, you know, every company can put, yeah, sustainable and green and whatever they want onto their ads and nobody can really. You know, I mean not nobody, but you really have to. You have still, at the moment, the opportunity to greenwash a lot, and the green claims directive is really about that.

Markus Linder: 16:31

But on a European level, there's also a sustainable food labeling framework currently in the process to be set up. It's not yet going to be mandatory in the first step, but the idea of that is to really make sure that across Europe we have one label that you can find in every country, in every store, in every product, and basically other labels over time will not be allowed anymore. I mean, if they contain like a scale, like you know, like this this dark green to dark red or similar. And the interesting thing is you don't even need a mandatory label for consumer communication, because what our retail customers are starting to do now is to say, okay, we have those science-based target commitments, so we have committed to our investors, to our employees, to our customers that we are going to, you know, make progress on that journey towards net zero.

Markus Linder: 17:28

And one step that we're going to take is, obviously, on the positive side, to incentivize our brands who offer more sustainable products by, for example, recommending them as alternative or by, for example, featuring them in marketing activities in a more prominent way, but also by ultimately, you know, putting them under pressure by, for example, communicating that every year, they will kick out 5% of products within each and every store, and that's the primary category where more sustainable alternatives are available in the market.

Markus Linder: 18:01

So there is a lot of pressure already on the retailers, from the employees, from their customers, from governments, from their investors, and that really forces them ultimately to set ambitious goals with regards to climate, you know, greenhouse gas emission reduction, and that also leads to steps that ultimately create a strong incentive towards the producers, towards the brands, to also tackle the challenge, and therefore, I don't think that a mandatory label will even be necessary. I think it's just going to happen, it's just going to come automatically, because brands who do not take action, who do not really become a part of that transition. They will just massively lose business in the mid to long term.

Ryan Grant Little: 18:45

That's the other thing about brands. They rarely want to be the first, but they also don't want to be the last leading edge and bleeding edge and all this type of thing. And is it hard to spot greenwashing in a grocery store with products?

Markus Linder: 18:59

Ah yeah, it is Definitely. For an average consumer it's pretty hard. I mean, I've just been at a conference in Spain, in Madrid, and they were super proud because they served their water not in pet bottles, not in plastic bottles, but in aluminum cans. And you know it was advertised like there's a huge benefit that it's plastic. Three and you and I, obviously, we know that the production of aluminum, no matter whether it's recycled or not, is super energy intense and costs significantly more emissions than producing a pet bottle, no matter whether it's a recycled of virgin material, and that it's basically a bad idea to sell water in aluminum cans.

Markus Linder: 19:45

But here they're really using, you know they're claiming, I mean they don't say more sustainable, but they say without plastic and use consumer think oh great, I can avoid using plastic. Or the same thing is on the palm oil discussion. So palm oil is a super productive, important commodity. Obviously there's lots of problems attached to the way how palm oil is produced at the moment, but in the end it has its base if it's produced right, because if we were to substitute 100% of the palm oil in our food with other oils, that would have an even more adverse and even more negative impact because other oil plants are grown in a way less efficient way, so you would need even more space.

Ryan Grant Little: 20:30

I found this out the hard way from this podcast. Actually, anastasia from Melt and Marble was talking to me about I thought I was being a good climate warrior and using coconut oil, which is apparently much worse than palm oil.

Markus Linder: 20:44

It depends, it depends. It's not that easy. It's not that easy. Coconut oil, you know it's typically grown in not a dead industrial scale yet and, yeah, it's tough. It's not that easy to say. You know, it all depends on the quantity. In the end, lots of ingredients have the space, but there's millions of examples like that where you as a consumer will find it very hard.

Markus Linder: 21:07

Or think about the whole regionality discussion. You know many consumers think that buying regional or buying locally is equivalent to buying sustainable, which really sounds, yeah, Amazing from a if you look at it for one millisecond. But if you then look a little deeper and realize that the pigs that your neighbor is producing are maybe fed with, you know, tons of soy originating from Brazil, where it's causing deforestation, or with palm oil from South East Asia, where loss of nature is caused by that, then suddenly regional or local, you know, doesn't become the obvious choice anymore. So it's really hard for consumers to understand today what is green and what is greenwashing. And this is why we see a huge opportunities for retailers, for brands, to really communicate the impact of products based on third party verified labels, but as well by providing content and by providing insights into the implications of food products, because that's the only way how consumers will ultimately understand what you're doing there.

Ryan Grant Little: 22:21

It's particularly challenging with meat because, you know, when I think of the labeling on ground beef, it's kind of it's beef, you know, and that's sort of the. That's it. But if you consider what you know, if by the mantra you are what you eat, then you look at what the cow has eaten and if you treat those as ingredients, it's a very long list. Right, that goes in there and it's definitely not regional. And this is one of the complaints that's levied against plant-based meats and that type of thing. Like the impossible burger people say well, look how long the ingredient list is, I want something more natural. That list would be just as long, if not longer. If you looked at what was in the, you know the ingredients were of that cow.

Markus Linder: 23:01

Yeah, I mean, depending on where you, you know how the cow is fed and which type of drugs are applied to the cow in the process of raising them. But yeah, it's definitely also an interesting discussion. You know, clean label and so on. I mean it makes sense to a certain extent, but I agree with you that you actually would have to also take the long list of food products and drugs that go into production of beef into account.

Ryan Grant Little: 23:27

On the other hand, you're quite active on LinkedIn and you have one of my favorite recurring series called One Change a Week, which I religiously read and comment on and try to adopt in my own lifestyle sometimes especially, you and I are both big fans of train travel, but you've been doing this, I think, for 140 weeks in a row, which congratulations. I think week number four or three with the podcast, and I'm trying to imagine what that's gonna look like for me and I wonder if you could kind of highlight some of these. Most of them are about sort of individual decision making and fighting climate change. In those 140 weeks, what are some of your kind of most interesting or favorite tips that you'd like to share?

Markus Linder: 24:12

I think the most important tip isn't actually yet in there yet, because you need to get started. You really need to. My recommendation would be to not look at this huge, complex problem and feel powerless because of the Chinese, because of the Indian people or whatever. I mean. We have a tremendous challenge ahead of us, but it's also an amazing opportunity to really change the way we live to the better. To pollution, three cities, to cities where you're not waking up in the middle of the night because a car is driving by at full speed and with very loud. We have the opportunity to again live more in connection with nature, being part of the nature, and the great thing about it is each and every one of us can really take little steps that help us to move into that direction, because, in the end, solving the climate crisis is not a 0-1 kind of game. It's not we're going to make it or we won't make it. I think I'm very optimistic that ultimately we will make it, but the question is what will be the sacrifices, what will be the casualties that we will have to live with on that way? Already now, tens of thousands of people are dying in Europe because of heat, for example. We see what's going on in Canada and I don't want to even talk about all the things that we will have to face in the next couple of years and decades. But the great thing is, every milli degree of Celsius really makes a difference and every one of us can really do a little thing to help mitigate the worst. And I think the most important tip from my side is really to get started. Set yourself, define a certain cadence, be it once a month, where you try to take a step into the right direction, as small as it might be, or once a week, like I try. I don't manage to do it every week, but I'm at least trying hard and feedback like from you obviously encourages me to continue with that. But I think the most important tip is get started, pick something small, something, no matter what. You know what really is easy for you, and then implement that step. And two weeks later, four weeks later, whenever, take the next step.

Markus Linder: 26:39

And obviously steps can be really easy, like switching to green electricity at home or, for example, questioning your mobility behavior. So do we really need to go five kilometers by car to the office, or wouldn't it be really cool for our health, for our mood for everything To take the bike, for example, to the office, or try to limit yourself in terms of vacations you want to take by plane, like, set yourself a goal and say, hey, I'm not going to do a city trip every other weekend, flying across Europe and causing a massive amount of emissions, but maybe I'll take the train, or maybe I'll try to do my vacation more and more in the region so that I don't have to emit tons and tons of CO2. And, obviously, a topic that I'm very passionate about is the food that we eat every day. So the food has a big impact in terms of our personal contribution to the climate crisis and by setting small goals like, for example, reducing the number of days a week that you consume meat.

Markus Linder: 27:46

So, for example, I still eat meat, but I try to really reduce it to a maximum one day a week, and if I eat meat, I only eat organic meat where I can be rather confident that that animal was treated in a humane way to a certain extent. I mean, slaughtering is probably never an amazing thing for animals, but it's at least just going down and reducing your impact, because, in reality, we don't all have to become vegan to really overcome the climate crisis. There is a model which is called planetary health, like planetary health diet. If we all would adopt that diet, this would mean we could still eat meat once a week or so, like, for example, chicken, and we could actually feed 10 billion people on this planet with that diet. So the problem is not eating meat per se, but it's the massive amount of meat that we're eating today. And obviously another topic is you know.

Ryan Grant Little: 28:46

The chicken might disagree, but yeah.

Markus Linder: 28:47

Yes, yes, I totally, I totally, totally feel with you, and I'm not sure if I'm at the end of my journey here. To be honest, we forgot to eating meat, so there's still, for sure, room here, also from my side, and definitely, from the moment on, whether it's like cell-based cultivated meat available, I would be one of the first ones to switch to that.

Ryan Grant Little: 29:07

Yeah, you know, I'm invested in some cultivated meat companies and I like meat, you know. But I spent so much time when I had a biogas company walking the kill floors of slaughterhouses that it just changed me, really changed me, and that was, you know, 2007, that that started. But I really like meat itself and so, as I say, people ask me, you know, why are you involved in? You must be real foodie. If you're involved in food tech, I'm like no, I'm really not. I'm like spaghetti-o's over the sink for dinner, kind of thing.

Ryan Grant Little: 29:35

But what I'm really looking forward to is the day that I can buy cultivated chicken wings, cultivated buffalo wings, and that I'm going to take a week off work once they're on the market and buy sweatpants two sizes too big and load up my Netflix and I'm going to pig out on chicken wings for the first time in 15, 20 years whenever it is. So I hear you and I think we're not that far away. I mean, we've seen. Also, the FDA has just approved this. I mean, now, you know, now in Washington and Boston, you can actually go in and buy cultivated chicken in a restaurant. You've been able to do this in Singapore for a few years. It's coming right. This is coming, so slaughter doesn't have to be an intrinsic part of meat and we can still eat meat and the sustainability profile will be better as well.

Ryan Grant Little: 30:26

But I'm also really curious. So, just getting back to your one change a week and I think you do a lot of these you come up with a lot of these while you're on a train. You talk about the train as being your mobile co-working space and you know this is obviously easier for those of us who live in Europe, where the trains are a little bit better than, say, in North America, but still it's obviously faster and usually cheaper to fly with EasyJet or Ryanair to, you know, for business travel. But you've opted to, at least for the majority of your trips, to go by train and by night trains. Can you just talk about like a little bit about the planning or how you think about this and how you make it work? You're also a family man, so you know you want to be at home. How do you make this work?

Markus Linder: 31:09

Yeah, I mean, basically, planning ahead is obviously important, especially if you want to take a night train, because unfortunately night trains are booked out, typically weeks ahead of departure time.

Markus Linder: 31:22

Oh well that's a good sign anyway. So it's a good time. Yeah, it's a good time, but it's also really. I'm sometimes doing crazy things like taking a train somewhere to Tyrol so that I can then take a night train from Tyrol to Amsterdam or whatever, because the direct night train from Vienna is booked out usually many weeks, if not months, ahead of departure time. But for me, the way I see it, is that, you know, it's for me an improvement because, for example, I even take the train to London now usually. So whenever I can, even to the UK, I take the train. It's just, I hop into the train in the morning at I don't know 8, 8am in Vienna and I'm there in the evening at 9pm, roughly in the city centre.

Markus Linder: 32:05

But basically I have a full day where I can work, almost like I'm working at the office. I mean internet connection, I mean calls are usually possible not always possible, but usually it works out pretty well and usually I try to block out those days to really, you know, make progress with more strategic projects or to really, you know, clean up my inbox and I really have time to work and to get stuff done. On the other hand, if I would have to take a plane to London, I would have to get up I don't know at 4.30am, go to the airport, go through check-in security, you know, wait for ages until I get onto the plane, can't really work during takeoff and landing. It's just such a lot of waste, lost time and I'm tired all day because I arrive like not having had enough sleep.

Markus Linder: 32:58

And, yeah, sure, I mean, from a financial perspective, it is usually cheaper to take the plane because I obviously need an extra night in London, which isn't super cheap. But on the other hand, you know I'm in the fortunate situation that I can prioritize the environment and my own well-being and my productivity over, yeah, financial, let's say, you know, cost saving in the end and, yeah, I really enjoy doing it. So it's not a sacrifice, but it's really, for me, an improvement of lifestyle in comparison to my old days where, you know, I had to get up at 4.30am at a regular basis and had super productive days because of, you know, flying and then, I don't know, taking the tube to the center of London. It's just a different way of traveling and, if you plan ahead and if you use the time wisely, yeah, it's definitely something I can recommend, not only for environmental reasons, but also because it just makes a lot of sense from a productivity point of view.

Ryan Grant Little: 34:04

Yeah, I'm the most productive on the train as well. If you want to splash out from Vienna and go in real luxury, you can still take the Orient Express from here to the UK. It doesn't go all the way to London anymore because of passport controls and everything since Brexit, but the Orient Express still goes. So if you feel like a 10,000 euro train ticket, there's an option. Yeah, probably they found a way to make it very unsustainable. Champagne and caviar and something like that. Yeah, my approach has been I used to also be you know, flying all over the place for meetings and you know, working on impact, but still flying. And now I try to do sort of where I would have gone in person to London or Paris or whatever three times in a row. Now I try to do sort of too remote by Zoom and then go once, stay a little bit longer, kind of make it count.

Markus Linder: 34:51

Yeah, and I think I mean the way how I typically you know, like I have a threshold of hours that are okay for me. So taking the train for 12, 13 hours is kind of okay, but going to Madrid or to Barcelona, where you would have to spend, you know, like more than 24 hours on the train, that's obviously I have to fly as well If I have to go there but fair.

Ryan Grant Little: 35:12

I have the same thing with when I'm going back to visit family in in Canada.

Markus Linder: 35:19

You're not taking a boat yet. I'm really disappointed.

Ryan Grant Little: 35:23

So, marcus, I'll link the one change a week and your LinkedIn and the show notes. I really appreciate chatting with you. Great to see you and, yeah, thanks a lot for joining today.

Markus Linder: 35:33

Thank you very much. It's going to pleasure.

Ryan Grant Little: 35:35

How cool you made it all the way to the end. Why not go one step further and subscribe, rate and share this podcast? Get in touch anytime with tips and guest recommendations at hello at climatetechpodcom. Find me, ryan Grant Little, on LinkedIn. I'll be back with another episode next week. Bye for now.