Ryan Grant Little: 0:42

Welcome to another Climate Tech podcast interviews with the people trying to save us from ourselves. A self-described corporate hippie, Emma Osborne, has found a way to combine her background as a corporate headhunter with her love of animals and nature as CEO of Citizen Kind. Emma is the first person companies call when they're looking to hire someone in the food tech space, or else who food tech execs reach out to when they're looking to make a change. We talked about her McDonald's moment, what's happening in food tech employment and some of the cool work she's coordinating to fight lobbyists' disinformation. I reached Emma in London. I'm Ryan Grant Little. Thanks for being here, Emma. Welcome to the podcast.

Emma Osborne: 1:24

Thank you, Ryan, this is brilliant. Thanks so much.

Ryan Grant Little: 1:27

I think that a lot of people who work in the world of impact probably know you already, whether personally or, maybe more likely, online. You're the CEO of Citizenkind, which you describe as a strategic consultancy for impact businesses to help them win the future. What does that mean, kongfei?

Emma Osborne: 1:47

What does it mean to win the future.

Ryan Grant Little: 1:49

Win the future.

Emma Osborne: 1:50

Well, I mean, I feel like we're really in a period of change, great change, at the moment. I think, historically, we will probably look back over this 30-year period, probably that we're in right now and see it as a revolution beginning of sorts, where I'm really hopeful that a lot of what currently exists in terms of injustice will actually the balance will shift. I came to realize that this was something I wanted to be involved in in the setting up of Citizenkind, and that really was to help companies create a positive impact in the world. It's definitely a very naive perspective to think that companies could have a positive impact, but I quite like that idea. I quite like being naive and thinking that you can make money and do good at the same time, and they don't need to be mutually exclusive, don't need to rely on charities to do all the good work in the world. We actually can use all of our passion and inspiration and motivation to make money as well as helping get things better.

Ryan Grant Little: 3:05

A lot of that money can fuel more impact. I've run both non-profits and for-profits and they both have their pros and cons, but with a for-profit I mean the more money that's coming in, the more profitable it is, the more you can scale impact, if that's what you choose to do with it Exactly.

Emma Osborne: 3:22

We can't need the money, just all in the hands of others and let them see what they want with it. That's not working out so well.

Ryan Grant Little: 3:32

And a lot of the consultancy work that you do is about placing people in roles and at companies. Can you talk about maybe specifically, some of the types of services and the consultancy work that you do?

Emma Osborne: 3:42

Yeah, sure.

Emma Osborne: 3:43

So it started off really being a business where we were identifying businesses who needed visionary and value aligned members of staff to join them, which could bring that secret source really into the organization, because I see it as an untapped resource that lots of startups could benefit from having but perhaps don't even know that it's available.

Emma Osborne: 4:11

In my work as a recruiter, I had often interviewed people who told me that their motivation was to do some good and so, knowing that that was in existence, I wanted to help those people then find those opportunities and, of course, help those businesses find those people. So it was a way for me to use my skills and experience and put it to good use helping others. So, having started off like that, it then became quickly obvious that not only did the businesses I was working with need help finding talent, but also actually in their commercial strategy. As well as doing, I've ended up doing all sorts of things like training sales teams and internal investigations, and also doing a lot of event creation and curation. So it's been quite a wild ride. So we've ended up becoming more of a fixer type agency, but because we're small, it means that we can be agile, so it's been fun.

Ryan Grant Little: 5:12

And how do you choose the types of organizations you work with? So they need to be an impact organization. Do you have like a set of criteria, or is it something that you kind of just feel and you can tell by interacting with the people and looking at their mission?

Emma Osborne: 5:24

Yeah, well, with 20 years experience, I've got pretty good at now identifying who's legit and who's not, or I would like to think so, but also I feel like sometimes actually the opposite can even be useful.

Emma Osborne: 5:40

So it's great having very high ideals, but the reality is is that obviously, when you're in business, you do need to make a profit, but also, if you're in the business of change, you cannot just rely on working within your own circle.

Emma Osborne: 5:57

So I'm a very passionate vegan and so my instinct is to always want to work with fellow vegans and help support them, because obviously we're a new 2% of the population and in the business world particularly that you know we're a very small percentage. But if change is going to happen and we're going to get more vegans, then actually vegans need to work with non vegans. So you know, my five year journey to this point is citizen kind, has really been kind of coming to that realization and realizing that actually bringing people to vegan values is the thing that needs to happen. But that only can happen if you're working outside and working with people that perhaps even are perceived to be the enemy or the competition. So people like Cargill, for example they would be an organization I would love to work with because I see them having a huge opportunity in being able to shift from their current business model to one that is much more fair, equitable and compassionate.

Ryan Grant Little: 7:01

So the large food processing company, cargill, and, as with a lot of categories of these kind of legacy companies that have historically, you know, emitted a lot of CO2 or, you know, are in industries that we might not, especially from a vegan perspective, be aligned with, to say the least, but because they have this power, if there's an openness to change or to shift, that's where the biggest leverage can happen right. So, as part of it is also there's a risk, always within our sector, to preach to the converted or create echo chambers. It's important to work in these industries, but to find out where the leadership is open to change and not that they're, you know, trying to rely on an organization like you, to greenwash or something like that.

Emma Osborne: 7:43

Well, that's just it. You know there's a huge danger of that, and so it's. I guess the trick is to work out where you can have influence and where actually your time is going to be best spent, because that's the other thing. A lot of these really big companies can easily actually tie up businesses in, you know, doing sort of a fool's work to stop them from doing anything impactful in order for them to enable them to their unsustainable business models to continue, but just a little bit longer, so they can make more money.

Ryan Grant Little: 8:17

It's like catch and kill, but instead of stories it's with companies.

Emma Osborne: 8:22

Exactly, exactly. So I mean it all sounds. It does sound very sort of what's the word? Corrupt, I guess, or maybe Maleficent's, but I think I actually believe in the good, that everybody has a good intent and everyone believes that what they're doing is right and doing their best. So it's about, I think, educating people that there's another way of bringing people along that journey of why.

Ryan Grant Little: 8:49

Well, famously, this is why the electric car took so long to come to the market right, and there's a great documentary called who Killed the Electric Car about this and it was basically a catch and kill of technology and of companies early on. So, yeah, I think it does happen and it does make sense for these vested interests sometimes to do this. But, as you say, it's about using your experience to find the opportunities where there's companies are looking to change and sincere about it and diving in there. So you've been active in this kind of especially recruiting work for 20 years. You've launched Citizenkind five years ago before that and, if I remember correctly, your kind of inciting moments for a starting Citizenkind is what you call your McDonald's moment, which I'm guessing is not an I'm loving it type moment.

Emma Osborne: 10:32

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Ryan Grant Little: 10:33

What happened and how that inspired you to change.

Emma Osborne: 10:36

Yeah, well, it was related to their advertising actually, because I was working in a recruitment business that I'd launched in Asia and I'd been there for six years and it had been very successful. And it was a strange dichotomy because the more successful the business became, the more disenfranchised I was and the more disillusioned I became. And it was really because we were helping these companies and these businesses just make more money, but they were chewing up all this brilliant talent that was going I was supplying them with and then spitting them out. They really didn't care about the people, they really didn't care about the environment. Also, I feel like it just felt very transactional. As I started to really take stock of my role, it was when we were asked to find a account director for the McDonald's account, a creative ad agency, that I thought is this going to be what I do with my life? That I help McDonald's sell more burgers, more, whatever? You don't want that on your team.

Emma Osborne: 11:41

I can't be a cog in that wheel, and I'd already been vegetarian since being a kid, so I don't go to McDonald's, haven't been to McDonald's for years and years, but it was more that, and I'd actually turned vegan the year before. But it was more just realizing that what I have as a resource is I have my time and I have my money, and if I'm spending my time at work, my work needs to be giving me something back beyond money. So that was really the spark that turned into a gigantic fire. So, yes, I then took a year and went around the world and had the absolute best year ever in 2017. I visit.

Emma Osborne: 12:25

It turned into a food research tour, actually now looking back, but at the time it was just completely self-indulgent. I've always been a foodie, always loved cooking, so I did cooking classes everywhere I went, looking really to see what inspiration I could get to make delicious vegan food in the future, increasingly thinking I would have a vegan business at the other end of that year. So a vegan cooking school, maybe, or my own vegan food company. And even before I started, the Citizenkind had a run-in with trying to make vegan ice cream, which was very short-lived, thankfully, because I discovered I don't have a sweet tooth, and wasabi pea ice cream is not something that people needed in their lives in 2018. Maybe now, actually, you'll be quite successful, but yes, thankfully that only lasted 10 days before I realized that my skills and experience were actually already needed by an industry that was burgeoning. So I quickly got stuck in and started to help businesses across all different sectors and industries.

Ryan Grant Little: 13:26

Some weeks, I think I might be single-handedly supporting the vegan ice cream industry at the Spirit in Vienna. You're probably uniquely positioned to talk about the employment market right now for impact companies and especially, probably in the alt-protein space and, to some extent, the climate tech space. A lot of people who listen to the podcast are people who are just pre or have had that moment of that realization that they want to do something else with their careers, with their lives, and are increasingly looking to get into something that's fighting the climate emergency. Can you talk a little bit about? We've had lots of commentary about what the funding environment looks like right now in the sector, but I wonder if you can talk a little bit about what the employment market looks like in the sector.

Emma Osborne: 14:14

Sure, well, I think, as with any sector that's focused on innovation, there are challenges bringing talent in, because you do not have a pool as big as the industry is growing. So it means you have to get creative and look outside and look for complementary skill sets that then can fit into your organization. But I feel like that is harder in this space, potentially, than in others, and I suppose I'm particularly thinking about something like Cultivated Meet, where they need people who've got experience culturing stem cells, for example, and actually a lot of the university programs relatively recently introduced Cultivated Meet into the academic offering. It means that the people that you're looking to bring in on the science side, which is largely where most of these companies are it's R&D focused, still with only a few commercial and very small scale operations happening globally they're having to look particularly into medical fields. Well, when you're looking at impact and talking about doing good in the world when it comes to curing cancer, that's where a lot of the stem cells are going to sit, so they already feel like they're doing something good in the world. So it means that a lot of the companies that have been set up have actually been held back because they haven't been able to access the talent they've needed as quickly as they've needed it.

Emma Osborne: 15:47

So that's definitely something that we need to see happening from governments is actually them investing in creating more talent in all of these countries that are focusing on alternative protein and really everybody should be and then, at the same time, obviously you've got this change within plant-based food, as the meat industry have really got plant-based in its sites with a lot of their narratives, and as that's taken a turn, what that has done to employment is it's meant that there are quite a lot of people now finding themselves out of a job as companies are being consolidated or companies are closing because they now can't get investment, which is a real shame when you look at how much time and how much effort has gone into building this plant-based category, which is so important, and it seems the data is showing that actually this is something that people want. So the time of order seems really unfair, but there's some actual, really great talent out there now who have plant-based experience. So for those companies who want to get their hands on them, you're in luck.

Ryan Grant Little: 17:05

I'll put your contact info at the end. I wonder also, beyond the employment side of things, you're also working on some or interested in some campaigns you've pointed out. You've been a major voice about fighting the disinformation that's out there in the sector as well. I wonder if you want to talk about some of the work that you're doing in this vein and how it's resonating, who it's resonating with, what's basically happening broadly speaking.

Emma Osborne: 17:32

Yeah, well, for a start, I think what a lot of people don't realize is how organized the meat and dairy industries are at their communications. So there's a very famous viral campaign called Got Milk hashtag Got Milk where you've probably seen celebrities with milk mustaches. And the reason that that exists is because the dairy board decided that they were going to use the money garnered from a check-off program, which was a government mandated program where all dairy companies had to put money into a pot essentially for every gallon of milk they sold and in order to help get rid of a milk surplus back in the 50s. So this has been going on for decades, but the Got Milk campaign came out of this and in using celebrities in creating this incredibly sticky image, it's actually those tactics are now being used on social media. They're now so.

Emma Osborne: 18:38

The meat industry has put $1.5 billion in a meat influencer academy where they spend eight weeks teaching people how to spread myths and disinformation around meat, how to challenge vegan companies, how to distract, and spreading misinformation online is, like it feels, a very 2023 thing to be doing, but it's not to be underestimated. It has huge power. We've seen that in political circles with Brexit. We saw it with the Trump campaign, where Cambridge Analytica deliberately employed these tactics using bots rather than individuals, but it was still very effective and won both of those campaigns politically. So there's a lot going on almost in the dark that people don't see, and I think we as an industry who are wanting to see a better, fairer, more sustainable food system come to light, we need to now get more organized in terms of how we communicate with the outside world and how we share our mission and vision for the future and get people along for the ride, because I feel like we're really on the right side of history here.

Ryan Grant Little: 19:55

I had Paul Rich from the ProVeg incubator on an earlier episode and we talked about some of the campaigns that they're trying to encourage as well and wondering, you know, should there be a check-off program for plant-based, these types of things? But it's crazy to think that this is basically government money, you know, or government-mandated money that's going into funding disinformation and fighting these things like labeling laws about plant-based milk and calling these things. You know, passing bills that are saying that it's confusing for people to read oat milk and you know, be confused that it's not from a cow, and I always point out the you know I've said this before on the podcast. But if this is really such a concern, then why aren't they going after the peanut butter industry, right Is that? Why is that not concerning? Exactly? It reminds me of, you know, the marriage equality stuff where it was always like if you're so concerned about the sanctity of marriage, why aren't you fighting divorce?

Emma Osborne: 20:50

Yes, well, exactly, I mean, the whole thing is just. I mean, it's all positioning and perspective right. So I think the peanut butter argument is totally valid and it's really just showing, though, the power of lobbying governments and the power of industry. I think the whole idea that governments are actually, you know, even responsible for what's going on in their countries from a business perspective is laughable really, because it's the businesses that are put and the industries that are pulling the strings. It seems it's not the governments making independent decisions, as perhaps they'd like their electorate to believe, because if it was, you know, these things are farcical really the labelling and the fact that you can't that coconut milk has existed as coconut milk for centuries and yet now we're supposed to call it something else. And I mean you can get if you really want to pull that argument apart. I mean, why are we calling it meat? It should be called flesh. That's what it is, it's flesh. So you know, these are the things and ideas that we really need to challenge in order to make people realise that you know we exist and we, you know there's a reason we exist, but I'm afraid they've been very, very effective at getting their processed food message across in the last year, particularly with.

Emma Osborne: 22:07

I mean, there's a book that's come out recently in the UK called Ultra Process People, which is written by a doctor who's on TV and so a site celebrity doctor, if you like and actually you know, in amongst the skewering of vegan food there is some, you know there's some validity in what he's saying. He's pointing at the, you know, consumer packaged goods industry and pointing out that we don't need all of these packaged snacks and you know, artificial flavourings and preservatives. You know, of course, there's a lot of truth in that, but you know, it's really between the lines as well and unfortunately, that narrative has been weaponised heavily against the plant-based industry. So that's something that I'm keen to do something about, and so I'm talking to as many industry bodies as I can and kind of worth, individuals, foundations, anyone really that is interested in putting their money and their voice behind a campaign that is going to help turn the tide on some of these things. But the timing is everything, so you need to be careful about when we do it.

Ryan Grant Little: 23:13

It does feel like crucial timing right now, as you mentioned, also from the employment side of things, and lots of you know lots of plant-based companies struggling. But just as countries like South Korea announced, like you know, massive push towards plant-based and alternative proteins and this, you know cultivated meat becoming legal in many countries and jurisdictions at the same time, so a lot of it feels like we just sort of have to hang on during this dip. You know, this is very much like the postcom bubble moment for the internet. I remember back then people talking about the internet being just a fad and you know that was fun. But that's over. Now back to reality and it's like no, this is going to underpin everything we do going forward, and I think that that same thing is happening with the food system right now.

Emma Osborne: 23:55

Absolutely and I feel like that. You know if this is the Valley of Death, okay fine, but you know where we're heading is the upward curve into life. You know we're sort of helping people to get healthier, we're helping people to live more compassionately, we're helping people getting touch with nature, relate to animals, feel better about their place in the world and give them the control perhaps that maybe people are feeling now they lack in their lives, and so, as this impact space grows, whether you're working in food or working in investment or working in media or working in biotech, it's actually feeling like you're being part of something which is exciting and positive, is kind of the antidote, almost, to modern life, I feel. So lots of reasons to be cheerful.

Ryan Grant Little: 24:47

And chipping away at the climate crisis while they're at it as well.

Emma Osborne: 24:51

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, the environmental benefits of a plant-based diet are absolutely extraordinary, and it's proven that it's healthier to choose plant-based alternatives over the flesh and excretion equivalents. I'm deciding I'm going to keep using those terms. I'm going to use the flesh and excretion yeah, I'm taking notes A very unpopular pump, but yeah, I mean, I think it makes sense from a practical perspective. If the environment is something you want to play a part in caring about, then this is something really practical you can do every single day, three times a day.

Ryan Grant Little: 25:31

Is there anything that you're working on right now that people can plug into? I mean, you mentioned you're looking for high net worth individuals and foundations to help with things like the disinformation fight and check off program type ideas. What else are you working on that people might be able to help with?

Emma Osborne: 25:46

I'm actually excited because this month I'll be launching a campaign alongside Viva where we are encouraging restaurants and cafes and hotels and anywhere that sells food basically to pledge to become 50% plant-based by end of 2025. So the campaign is 50 by 25. We're going to be launching that to those restaurants this month and then asking the public to support by visiting the restaurants that have signed up for it come February next year. So that'll be, you know, the January will end and then come February, right now, go out and support your 50 by 25. And then we'll be asking the public to do the same. So it's going to be a very targeted campaign but something very practical that people can do for our planet. So we're looking to people who currently meet but maybe really care about the environment. This is a way that you can do it slowly and in transition, because I feel like that seems to be the best way for people to get there. It's not necessarily an overnight journey and most people I know do the January but then the rest of the year it's not quite so environmentally friendly. So this is a way to actually help bed in those changes in terms of lifestyle, but do it gradually, and so I feel like it's an easy pledge to make 50% plant based by the end of 2025, but two whole years that could be.

Emma Osborne: 27:15

You know, you pick three and a half days a week. It could be that you choose. I'm going to have all vegan breakfasts and I'm going to have every other day of lunch. Lunch is going to be vegan or dinner is going to be vegan. So there's loads of different ways you could do it, but essentially it's about just getting people to really think about what they're eating and, of course, for restaurants, it's a way to help them then meet that demand that is going to be coming from consumers. So the two things go hand in hand. So really excited about that.

Ryan Grant Little: 27:43

And so to find out about that launch and then to follow along with it. I'm guessing the best place for people to find you is to join your already quite substantial LinkedIn following is. I'll put this in the show notes as well, but do you want to just mention what your LinkedIn handle is?

Emma Osborne: 27:58

Yeah, sure it's forward slash emerald spawn. This sounds really arrogant, but yes, by all means, please find me there and follow me there, but I'm not actually allowed to add any more people as connections because there's a limit of 30,000. So I would love to hear from you. So please send me an email. I know it's really old fashioned, but until LinkedIn change their ridiculous policy, then I'm stuck.

Ryan Grant Little: 28:23

So they can follow you, but not be a connection with you.

Emma Osborne: 28:26

So follow me, send me an email if you'd like to chat. I'd love to hear from you. So it's Emma at citizenkindcom. There's no secret about my email address. So yeah, please do get in touch and don't be put off by Silly LinkedIn. I mean, kim Kardashian would last two seconds on there, so I don't really understand it, but okay.

Ryan Grant Little: 28:49

Okay, well, that's great. Thanks a lot, Emma. Really appreciate it and looking forward to finding more about the 50 by 25 campaign from your LinkedIn.

Emma Osborne: 28:57

Yes, brilliant. Thanks so much, ryan, and thanks for this podcast. I really enjoy it. It's fantastic.

Ryan Grant Little: 29:02

That's great to hear. Thanks, so much Thanks for listening to another Climate Tech podcast. It would mean a lot if you would subscribe, rate and share this podcast. Get in touch anytime with tips and guest recommendations at hello at climatetechpodcom. Find me, ryan Grant Little, on LinkedIn. I'll be back with another episode next week. Bye for now.