Promoting Hydrogen and Climate Advocacy

Matthew Krayton 0:00

You know , one of the issues with electrolyzers is you can't really start them up and then shut them down because it messes with the membranes that facilitate the extraction of the hydrogen molecule from a water molecule . So they kind of have to run all of the time . But there's some really cool technology now that is being developed that can work with the flow of renewables into the grid , so that you're using more renewable as opposed to hitting like peaker plants and things like that .

Ryan Grant Little 0:35

Welcome to another Climate Tech Podcast interviews with the people trying to save us from ourselves . Matt Creighton is a public affairs strategist who worked with the Biden campaign , as well as an adjunct professor teaching in a first-of-its-kind social media program at Centenary University . I wanted to talk to him specifically about the work he's doing to promote hydrogen across the US . I reached Matt in New York . I'm Ryan Grant . Little Thanks for being here , matt . Welcome to the podcast .

Matthew Krayton 1:04

Thanks for having me .

Ryan Grant Little 1:06

You're the founder of Publitics , which is a public affairs , political , pr and strategy consultancy . Can you talk a little bit about what you do there ?

Matthew Krayton 1:15

Sure , yeah , that's an interesting question . This is sort of a funny question to me too , because it's like you have these conversations at the dinner table with your family . It's like , so what do you do for a living ? And it's like , well , it's actually a lot of different things , but sort of distilling it down to its parts , we help our clients develop strategies from a communications , positioning , marketing and even in sort of a political context as well strategies to move opinion in one direction or another , persuade people of particular viewpoints , and to help position organizations , candidates and leaders and companies in the marketplace overall . And then , of course , that includes the implementation of that strategy . So , from that perspective , we do everything from crisis communications to advertising , to digital strategy , to just general advisory work for our clients .

Ryan Grant Little 2:03

And are your clients usually ? Is that government , is that corporates , is a mix of those kinds of things we have a pretty broad spectrum of clients across sectors .

Matthew Krayton 2:11

So we do a fair amount of work with government clients , political campaigns . We do work with private sector clients , so everything from publicly traded to more mid-market or startup startups , and then also like nonprofits , advocacy organizations and other types of organizations like that . So so , yeah , we do everything again , from like real estate all the way to you know , clean energy , energy transition climate , and you know more corporate communications and internal communications as well .

Ryan Grant Little 2:38

I feel you , by the way , with those dinner conversations with family trying to explain what you do . I've had that for most of my life . At the beginning of your career you'd considered becoming a history teacher but then found yourself kind of more drawn into the climate advocacy work , and I wonder if there was like a specific moment that caused that shift or how that came about .

Matthew Krayton 2:58

Yeah , it was sort of one of those kind of funny what I call like quintessentially millennial stories . So , you know , I went to college or university for history in my undergrad , history and political science , so I did a minor in political science and then a master's degree in education . So , like , my trajectory was very set on becoming a history teacher While I was in school , as I was graduating in 2010 , and then again in 11 with my master's we were still living in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis , and there weren't a whole lot of jobs available , but the good news is , during grad school , I had an opportunity to work for a public polling institute called the Public Mind Poll at Fairleigh Dickinson University , where I got to really understand the ins and outs of measuring public opinion on various issues , candidates and other types of things . I had always had an interest in politics , but that was sort of my first entree into actually having hands-on experience , albeit in a more academic setting , but hands-on experience in practicing politics . So what happened after that , though , is I ended up taking a job at the university helping to do some fundraising , got laid off 10 months later , and I was like you know what ? I just want to do my own thing . Try to , you know , start a business . So I started at and this kind of sounds insane looking back on it but it ended up working out , which I think is sort of typical of the entrepreneurial journey . So I ended up starting a

Clean Hydrogen Hub and Sustainability Discussion

Matthew Krayton 4:20

business .

Matthew Krayton 4:20

I was a solo act for a while and ended up finding a couple of campaigns that would take me on . So , like my , my whole thing was , you know , well , you know I'm young and people , and this is sort of when social media was becoming a bigger part of political campaigns . So , you know , I thought , okay , I'm young , what will they trust me to do ? Social media . So I just went to a couple of campaigns .

Matthew Krayton 4:38

I'm like I'll do your social media . They're like you look young , yes , of course . Like obviously you know what you're doing . I'm like plan worked and we've been kind of going ever since . So I've been very fortunate that you know we've picked up clients and as we started working in the political arena , we began to transition to doing more corporate work , which led us into doing quite a bit of environmental advocacy work for organizations that you know focus on climate issues or other types of environmental issues . You know water quality , things like that and you know focus on climate issues or other types of environmental issues . You know water quality , things like that and you know that kind of blossomed into doing a lot of work in the clean energy sector as well .

Ryan Grant Little 5:11

Okay , so you're probably born around like 1991 . And in that cohort of people where , like after the crisis and the 2008 crisis , it's like the millennial cohort where most people were graduating there's a largest population of graduates and least amount of jobs at the same time . Isn't that like perfect storm back then ?

Matthew Krayton 5:30

I was close , yeah , 88 . So I was still in 80s , yeah , still a child of the 80s . But yes , I was part of that cohort , sort of like middle millennial , that ended up in kind of an odd situation . Yeah , not very many jobs , a lot of people that I ended up going to school with ended up in ended up doing things other than they went to school for . So it was sort of again a very typical kind of millennial trajectory . But you know , it's been an interesting ride for sure .

Ryan Grant Little 5:52

I'm apparently elder , millennial , as many people have usefully pointed out to me . One of the things you're working on is the topic of hydrogen and specifically you're leading the communications for the Mid-Atlantic Clean Hydrogen Hub , or Mach 2 . I want to know about the 2 in there as well . Can you talk a little bit about this ? And I think there's like seven hubs that make up this hub of hubs . What's it all about ? What does it do ? Who's it for ? Who's behind ?

Matthew Krayton 6:18

it ? Sure , absolutely so . The Hydrogen Hubs program is a national program that was a part of the Biden administration's clean energy agenda through the bipartisan infrastructure law . So there are two . There's sort of two components to it . So there's the bipartisan infrastructure law piece that set up the Hydrogen Hubs Program and then the IRA , the Inflation Reduction Act , which is sort of the second piece down the line where you know there are tax credits for production of clean hydrogen .

Matthew Krayton 6:44

So as the bipartisan infrastructure law was passed and so Department of Energy started to build out a selection process for evaluating applications from a variety of hubs . I think there were upwards of 20 hubs total nationwide that applied for selection by the Department of Energy to become one of the ultimately seven . I think the initial intent was to look at somewhere between seven and like 12 ish hubs . You know , depending upon again , geographic factors and other factors which I can get into in a little bit . But ultimately the idea behind the hydrogen hubs program is that it's a part of an all of the above strategy for energy transition . In particular , you know , clean hydrogen is a very promising tool for decarbonizing hard to abate sectors , right , so that 15 to 20% of the economy that's very difficult to electrify . So that was sort of the rationale for creating the Hubs , the Hydrogen Hubs program .

Matthew Krayton 7:41

So , essentially and I can get into exactly what a HydrogenHub is , because I think there's a little bit of a misconception out there , which is understandable . So I think that as we started to , after the selection process started to introduce this idea to the public , I think people had this picture in their head that there would be some singular facility or building right . That was the HydrogenHub and that's not really what it is . Essentially , a hydrogen hub is a network of producers , offtake and workforce development and then transportation infrastructures , whether those be pipelines or other types of means of transporting clean hydrogen to end users . So that , essentially , is what a hydrogen hub is . And again , the concept was to provide a tool or to give us another tool in the toolkit to deal with some of these harder to abate sectors .

Ryan Grant Little 8:29

Okay , and so it sounds like there's a geographic element to it as well . If you're talking about , like local suppliers , offtakers and transportation and that type of thing , whereabouts are they ? And I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about how you chose those ones .

Matthew Krayton 8:42

Yeah . So the Department of Energy made their selection based on a couple of factors . So number one , geographic distribution . So the seven hubs are scattered across the country strategically . So you have one in the Midwest , you have one on the Gulf Coast . I'm definitely gonna miss a few here , but one on the Gulf Coast , you have one in California , one in the Pacific Northwest and another one in , like West Virginia , western Pennsylvania , and I might be missing one or two other . I'm probably missing a few , but they are distributed geographically .

Matthew Krayton 9:12

There are a couple of different considerations . So the other consideration was the means of hydrogen production or feedstock for hydrogen in each of these areas . So each of the hubs sort of serves a specific purpose or has a different mix of hydrogen production in each of these areas . So each of the hubs sort of serves a specific purpose or has a different mix of hydrogen production in terms of the type of hydrogen , so like we can get into the color codes on hydrogen a little bit . But so that was the thought process there .

Matthew Krayton 9:34

So for our hub in particular , the Mach 2 , our hub geographically covers right now , as it's conceived , southeastern Pennsylvania , so like Philadelphia , and then you know other parts of southeastern Pennsylvania , so like Philadelphia , and then you know other parts of southeastern Pennsylvania , southern New Jersey and Delaware , the entire state of Delaware . So basically , the goal for our hub is really we are the green hub and again getting to the color codes , but green and pink really is the bulk of the hydrogen that we're going to produce in our hub . So our selection was made on that basis of okay , we need to figure out how to do green and pink hydrogen really well . So you know we're going to be that hub , whereas some of the other hubs have a little bit more blue and the mixed blue hydrogen and some other ways of producing hydrogen as well .

Ryan Grant Little 10:21

Okay , let's get to the colors , because I'm curious about that as well . But let's take it a little bit higher level just for a second , and listeners to the podcast will have heard some episodes about hydrogen and it seems to be really kind of roaring back in a number of ways and I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about it , like hydrogen 101 . How do we use it ? Why is it important from a clean energy and climate perspective ?

Matthew Krayton 10:45

Yeah , absolutely . So I would say the lowest hanging fruit when we're talking about hydrogen is the fact that currently , globally and in the United States , we produce a ton of hydrogen . To begin with , right now , almost exclusively in the United States , all of that hydrogen is produced . It's really great , great hydrogen right . So it creates emissions as you're producing the hydrogen . Now it's the cheapest method of producing hydrogen , but it doesn't necessarily solve the climate issue

Advances in Clean Hydrogen Technology

Matthew Krayton 11:11

.

Matthew Krayton 11:11

So lowest hanging fruit , I mean hydrogen has applications in a variety of industrial applications , for example , like process improvement . So when we're talking about refining a petroleum , for example , you need hydrogen for process heating . A lot of industries use hydrogen for process heating . And then , of course , in long distance , heavy duty transportation . Hydrogen is starting to . We're starting to look at hydrogen as a means of decarbonizing those sectors . So , and then also agriculture . So ammonia production , for example , you know you need hydrogen and right now , again , it's not a super clean process . So the lowest hanging fruit is replacing the gray hydrogen production we have now with cleaner hydrogen production down the line , once we can get that up and running .

Matthew Krayton 11:56

Now the second part again are decarbonizing some of those harder to abate sectors . So again , like concrete , steel manufacturing . I'm just giving like a couple of examples , because the list is pretty long Maritime shipping , long distance trucking , so , for example , tractor trailers . Right now you know it would be great if we could electrify them . The problem is the batteries are quite heavy and you cannot max out your load in terms of weight if you have those heavy batteries Plus it . Also there are delays in charging . So , like charging , still the technology and the battery technology hasn't gotten to a place where you can just pull up to a rest stop , plug in and be on your way in five to 10 minutes , which causes issues , right ? So it makes goods more expensive . You're transporting less per load in most cases with the battery powered trucks , so there are definitely some difficulties when you're trying to electrify those large , energy intensive applications In addition to , like construction equipment , street sweepers , public transportation .

Matthew Krayton 12:51

So another great application of clean hydrogen would be to use fuel cell buses instead of using electrified buses . So electric buses work really well in certain circumstances . For example , when you have a flat , relatively warm climate , it works fairly well . Now , when you have hills and it gets cold in the winter , the time that it takes to both charge the battery and then the time that it takes to discharge the battery fluctuates to a point where it just becomes impractical and you're taking buses out of service , you lose reliability and you have to buy that many more buses in your fleet in order to accommodate the longer charging times at the depot . So hydrogen can solve that problem by basically plug it into the hydrogen refueling station , fuel up the fuel cell and it's right back on the road , you know , without anyone knowing the difference , and in that case so like . The only emission then is really water vapor and some heat , which is a vast improvement over diesel .

Ryan Grant Little 13:45

And you threw out another color , gray there . So I've got gray , green , pink , orange I've heard as well . So what's the deal with all of these different colors and how do they affect performance or what are their applications ?

Matthew Krayton 14:03

Yeah , absolutely so this has been . Another interesting aspect of this is , when we're talking about the color codes , we're not actually talking about the hydrogen molecule . That is the same across the board . So it doesn't matter how you produce it , you're still getting the same hydrogen molecule . It's the same thing . You can use it in fuel cells , you can use it for industrial process improvement .

Matthew Krayton 14:16

The color codes refer , though , to how that hydrogen is produced . So gray hydrogen , for example , is produced using steam methane reformation , where you take methane and split the hydrogen atoms off , and then you do get a carbon emission from that . So you get hydrogen and then some other emissions as well as a result of producing gray hydrogen . So then you move down the line to blue hydrogen . So blue hydrogen is steam methane reformation with carbon capture . So same process , relatively inexpensive , with the added cost being the carbon capture element of that . So you capture the carbon , then you figure out how to reuse it .

Matthew Krayton 14:53

So I know there's been some interesting talk about , you know reusing it , like the food and beverage industry , where you need that carbon dioxide for different you know different applications , but also then at scale , though really what we're talking about is storing it underground for the most part , you know , and there are other advances coming down the line to that could make that a little bit easier . But carbon capture doesn't really work all that well in certain regions because the storage is just sort of impractical . So , like for example in our region , it's not very practical . There really isn't any place to put the carbon dioxide , so you'd have to transport it out somewhere else and that sort of defeats the purpose of what are the ideal circumstances under which to store it ?

Ryan Grant Little 15:29

Is it like like the Canadian Shield or something like that ? It's kind of rocky , rocky caves , that type of thing .

Matthew Krayton 15:35

Yeah , you need , um , I believe and and I'm sure they're , you know , the scientists that are involved in this could do a better job of explaining this but I think largely the ability to store it underground . You know somewhere , and we just don't have that in the mid-atlantic , that that ability to do that , whereas like the midwest , you know , you have a little bit more in in the south you have a little bit more of an opportunity because there's just more open space and more geological formations that you can kind of pump the carbon into . There are also like other applications too , so like using carbon black , for example , for other applications . But again it's just a matter of scale and like how much you can capture and then how much you can reuse from that . So that's blue hydrogen . Then you move down the line to green hydrogen . So green hydrogen is produced using a process called electrolysis , where the hydrogen molecule is separated from water . So green hydrogen . So you use electrolysis using renewable energy , so wind , solar and hydroelectric , for example . You would take the electrons from that and then produce the green hydrogen using electrolysis . And then you move to pink , which is the same thing as green hydrogen , except you're using nuclear power for the inputs for the electrons to do the electrolysis .

Matthew Krayton 16:48

And then orange is a little bit more complicated in that I think there are a couple of different definitions of orange hydrogen . So we do have in our hub . We're characterizing as one orange hydrogen project and what we mean by that is we're taking biogas , biomethane , from a wastewater treatment plant in Philadelphia , and this is all theoretical at this point . We're still very much in the planning stages , so this project may not move forward , but we'll see . So basically what you do is you take that biomethane which flare the methane . So that's , that's one method of orange production . And then I believe there's one other definition where it uses like sort of natural geological formations , like under underground , to create hydrogen .

Matthew Krayton 17:48

That I'm not as familiar with , you know , just because we don't have that in the hub and I'm not sure that anyone in the country is necessarily planning to do that . So I'd have to check into that . So that really is . Those are the main color codes . And then I know over the last couple of years that you know there've been other colors added , like shades of the rainbow , so it's like now we have like teal and , and again I'm not sure exactly . You know what those things mean and I don't actually don't find it to be particularly useful . I think it's actually quite confusing for people that the color coding system but yeah , so that pretty much describes again the process by which the hydrogen is produced , not the actual hydrogen molecules .

Ryan Grant Little 19:13

When I worked in renewable energy 20 years ago . There was a lot of talk about hydrogen back then and it kind of felt like a boom and bust cycle and kind of the determination was that you know , the economics didn't stack up . That was largely driven , I think , by the 2008 crisis that you know . All of a sudden , money became very , very expensive much more than in this kind of boom and bust cycle that we've just experienced in the last few years . Much more than in this kind of boom and bust cycle that we've just experienced in the last few years . And now I hear about it a lot .

Ryan Grant Little 19:44

So , in climate tech and with climate tech investors and some of the sharpest climate tech investors I know are really looking at this , and especially in terms of applications like storage and that type of thing and I wonder I mean , the obvious answer is probably you know the economics and the boom and bust cycle , but has anything else changed ? Has the technology ? Is this a question of like market conditions , or has technology in the space changed a lot as well since then ?

Matthew Krayton 20:06

I think it's a little bit of both , so I can speak from the perspective of the United States . So the first is , you know , the investment by the federal government in the H2 hubs program really helps to set up

Hydrogen Investment and Technology Development

Matthew Krayton 20:17

both the production the offtake . So in each of the hubs the intent is to have a production balance of offtake to really create a market for that hydrogen which drives the cost down considerably . The second part is going to be the tax credits from the IRA , so the Inflation Reduction Act which will help further reduce the levelized cost of hydrogen to make it more competitive with other types of fuels like natural gas . So the IRA tax credits theoretically and that rule has not been finalized yet , so we're waiting to see what that actually looks like and how that's going to impact the overall mix of hydrogen in the country . But those investments have theoretically will push down the cost of hydrogen where it is competitive with other fuels and then the market kind of takes over from there . So that is one big piece of the puzzle . The second big piece of the puzzle , especially when you're talking about green and green hydrogen in particular , is the cost of renewables is continuing to fall right so it's just getting cheaper and cheaper to source renewable electricity , either from solar , hydroelectric or wind , which makes again the electrolysis process a heck of a lot cheaper than it used to be . And we still have a long way to go with that . I mean , we need more renewable capacity . We need to figure out how to tackle interconnection delays in the grid . So in our grid , you know , it's about a six year backlog , which is not not super helpful , but again , once that comes along , it's going to get a lot less expensive and , I think , make things a little bit easier .

Matthew Krayton 21:44

And then the final part to your point about technology is yes , technology is in fact getting a lot better on , particularly on the electrolysis side . So there's a lot of cool research going on on how to make electrolyzers more economical to run . So you know , one of the issues with electrolyzers is you can't really start them up and then shut them down because it messes with the membranes that facilitate the extraction of the hydrogen molecule from a water molecule , from a water molecule , so they kind of have to run all of the time . But there's some really cool technology now that is being developed that can work with the flow of renewables into the grid , so that it you know you're using more renewable as opposed to hitting like peaker plants and things like that . So it slows down when there's less renewables . When there's more in the grid it can pull some of those electrons in and not mess with the balance of and I'm saying this as someone who cannot I'm not an engineer , not a scientist .

Matthew Krayton 22:40

So just full disclosure . You know I'm giving the layman's version here . The actual answers to this are much more interesting than I can give . But and then the other piece of it too is like the actual membranes in the electrolyzers . You know , again there's a lot of research and development going on in how to reduce the amount of like precious metals , for example , or rare earth that you'd need , which are currently used in electrolyzers . It's using much more common elements in order to accomplish the same goal . So there are a lot of cool developments there , in addition to fuel cells and the carbon capture piece .

Matthew Krayton 23:10

So it is really a three pronged , you know , a three pronged issue , plus , I think , also just a broader recognition . I think , globally , that we really need to figure out how to decarbonize that 15 to 20% of the economy . That's very hard to abate because , again , you can't electrify it or it's very impractical to electrify it as much as I think we'd all like to , or have an easy button to click and say , okay , we can electrify big cargo ships or electrify tractor trailers . That'd be great . It's just not practical right now . And hydrogen , again , is a promising tool there . So I think where there's a need , you also see the economics start to fall in line a little bit more .

Ryan Grant Little 23:48

It's early days yet , but do you have a sense of how the change in administration might affect something like this ? You mentioned the IRA , which is very much you know a Biden policy of , maybe his flagship policy , and I wonder if you have a sense . I mean , if there's price parity and you know if the costs are reasonable , then these things can tend to be a little bit less political , thankfully . But if we're not there yet , it could be still kind of a third rail . I wonder what your sense is of that right now .

Matthew Krayton 24:15

Look , I think I mean it is hard to say right now exactly how the hydrogen hubs program could be impacted by the change of administration . What I will say is there are indications that certain elements of the energy transition

Clean Hydrogen Development and Challenges

Matthew Krayton 24:31

and development of clean energy in the United States should survive , given again that the economics of renewables are getting better . And then also , you know , I think there is a lot of buy-in from the private sector into clean hydrogen , into renewables , because it is becoming cheaper to do that . So I mean , if you actually compare that against drilling , for example , like drilling new wells for oil and petroleum , that is not as economical as it used to be , right . So , like I think , if there's a desire to ramp up oil production quickly in this country , I mean we're already producing more energy in the United States than we ever have , and that's including natural gas , that's including oil . But exploring and drilling new wells , I mean there's a lag from when you drill to when that actually comes online to when that actually starts to impact the price of fossil fuels . So I think there are a lot of , you know , folks in the private sector who are looking at this and saying it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to invest in something that we know , regardless of this administration or the next , we're going to have to do it anyway , right ? So I do think that there is some recognition that you know there is an end of the line for fossil fuels at some point , or at least in the way that we have them currently or we're using them currently globally . I do think there's enough recognition there to keep most of it on track .

Matthew Krayton 25:48

So I remain optimistic because , again , it's good for the economy . It creates jobs . So , for example , just in our hub alone , in this region , our sort of benchmark is we're looking to create somewhere north of 20,000 new jobs . A lot of them would go to labor unions , so a lot of them are good union jobs in this area .

Matthew Krayton 26:08

So economically it makes sense , I think , from a bottom line perspective , for a lot of these companies who are trying to figure out what's next , especially fossil fuel companies that understand that they have to transition anyway , that clean hydrogen is a good place to start , and then you can also reuse some of the infrastructure too . So again , one of our advantages in the mid-Atlantic is we have pipelines that can theoretically be resleeved or refurbished to handle hydrogen transportation , or also we have rights of way that exist that are currently being underutilized as it is . We have pipelines and things that are just not being used at the moment and they're kind of sitting fallow and are economically useless unless you repurpose that stuff . So there are a lot of assets out there that could be repurposed as well to transport clean hydrogen . So I think the incentives are aligned to have a cautiously optimistic view of where we're headed on clean hydrogen in the United States 20,000 new jobs is definitely nothing to sneeze at .

Ryan Grant Little 27:04

One of the other kind of goals that you have is to reduce GHGs by 25 million tons per year , and I just wonder if you could talk about how you came up with that number and or I mean maybe not you , but as a group where that number comes from and what needs to happen in order to facilitate that .

Matthew Krayton 27:22

Yeah , definitely . So you know the sort of back of the envelope math is . You know you look at the variety of end uses in the region . So , again , if you look at the mid Atlantic region on you know air pollution maps , for example , it's like a lot of big red blobs around this area , right , like you know , we have a lot of criteria , pollution , you know , and particulate matter , and you know air pollution issues that kind of just hang in the air in like Southeast Pennsylvania , parts of like Northwestern Delaware , south Jersey .

Matthew Krayton 27:48

So , and the reason for that is this is historically has been an industrial region , right . So like a lot of industry , manufacturing , transportation , so like we're along the I-95 corridor . So for your listeners who you know are not in this area , that's , you know the main artery that runs from New England all the way down to Florida and is a major artery for commerce and that runs right through Philadelphia , right through Delaware and South Jersey . So you know you take all of those end uses . You know trucks that you could potentially take off the road and replace with fuel cell trucks . Industrial process improvement , again , steel , cement manufacturing , glass manufacturing is another application and you look at the emissions that are created by those industries and you can kind of work out okay , like we can . Actually , if we're successful in producing clean hydrogen at the level that we hope to produce it at , we should theoretically be able to reduce those greenhouse gas emissions by the amount that we came up with .

Ryan Grant Little 28:41

Been on that highway many times in my life . Give us one thing that you're excited about and one thing that you're nervous about with respect to the USA's hydrogen economy .

Matthew Krayton 28:52

Yeah .

Matthew Krayton 28:52

So I'm excited to see all of the technological innovations , I think , coming up Because , again , it's going to make it a lot more economical to produce hydrogen in a clean way , right ?

Matthew Krayton 29:02

So , be that green or pink hydrogen through electrolysis , so that's extraordinarily exciting to see the new developments there , to see the new efficiencies and then to see how that can be applied to specific end uses across the board .

Matthew Krayton 29:17

I think the biggest risk again is , you know , in some ways , lack of clarity , right ? So the IRA tax credits are sort of the big looming question over over a lot of this , right ? So if those don't shake out , you know , with the requisite kind of flexibility that you need in order to account for those interconnection delays and the delays in renewables coming online in some places , it could make it quite difficult to create a market for clean hydrogen if it's just too expensive . So that's a huge risk and you know , and again , the second risk would be a slowdown in renewable , overall renewable development in the US . And you know I don't think you know , again , just looking at it , it is economical at this point , it's getting a lot cheaper to do so . There is an incentive there . The thing that I'm most concerned about would probably be offshore wind , though , if we're looking at potential areas of risk .

Ryan Grant Little 30:10

And for people who are interested in the mission , want to get involved or find out more . Where should they find you ?

Matthew Krayton 30:19

So they can find us at . I believe it's mock2.com .

Ryan Grant Little 30:24

That's like Top Gun Mach M-A-C-H , yep dash2.com . Perfect , matt . Thanks so much for joining . Thanks for having me . Thanks for listening to another Climate Tech Podcast . It would mean a lot if you would subscribe , rate and share this podcast . Get in touch . Thanks for having me .